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I Tried to Open a Lemonade Stand - John Stossel - Townhall Conservative Columnists - Page 1

Seeded on Fri Feb 24, 2012 3:44 AM EST
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Want to open a business in America? It isn't easy.

In Midway, Ga., a 14-year-old girl and her 10-year-old sister sold lemonade from their front yard. Two police officers bought some. But the next day, different officers ordered them to close their stand.

Their father went to city hall to try to find out why. The clerk laughed and said she didn't know. Eventually, Police Chief Kelly Morningstar explained, "We were not aware of how the lemonade was made, who made the lemonade and of what the lemonade was made with."

Give me a break. If she doesn't know, so what? But kids trying their first experiment with entrepreneurship are being shut down all over America. Officials in Hazelwood, IllinoisIll., ordered little girls to stop selling Girl Scout cookies.

It made me want to try to jump through the legal hoops required to open a simple lemonade stand in New York City. Here's some of what one has to do:

-- Register as sole proprietor with the County Clerk's Office (must be done in person)

-- Apply to the IRS for an Employer Identification Number.

-- Complete 15-hr Food Protection Course!

-- After the course, register for an exam that takes 1 hour. You must score 70 percent to pass. (Sample question: "What toxins are associated with the puffer fish?") If you pass, allow three to five weeks for delivery of Food Protection Certificate.

-- Register for sales tax Certificate of Authority

-- Apply for a Temporary Food Service Establishment Permit. Must bring copies of the previous documents and completed forms to the Consumer Affairs Licensing Center.

Then, at least 21 days before opening your establishment, you must

arrange for an inspection with the Health Department's Bureau of Food Safety and Community Sanitation. It takes about three weeks to get your appointment. If you pass, you can set up a business once you:

-- Buy a portable fire extinguisher from a company certified by the New York Fire Department and set up a contract for waste disposal.

-- We couldn't finish the process. Had we been able to schedule our health inspection and open my stand legally, it would have taken us 65 days.

I sold lemonade anyway. I looked dumb hawking it with my giant fire extinguisher on the table.

Tourists told me they couldn't believe that I had to get "all those permits." A Pakistani man said: "That's crazy! You should move to Pakistan!"

  • Enjoy this article? Help vote it up the 'Vine.

Published to:

StevieGee

So... Move to Pakistan.

  • 3 votes
Reply#1 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:27 AM EST
sugarcupid.com←DATE--successful man and beautiful woman--the largest single clubDeleted
Jim44

So... Move to Pakistan.

Well that's typical.... Why would we want to make it easier for businesses to open or operate in the US ...?

But to recommend they move overseas is that the newest Democratic Talking point now?

  • 2 votes
#3 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:43 AM EST
StevieGee

Do you think that food safety laws are frivolous Jim? Do you think that we should strive to be more like Pakistan?

  • 1 vote
#3.1 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:01 AM EST
cg68doc

Frivolous? some are..... but they certainly are an impedement to a free market economy. If the "food safety laws" are such a great protection of the food supply, why do we have more food borne illnesses every year? Should we be having E. Coli outbreaks from spinach if the food inspections are such a great thing? Do you really think that the 5 or 6 inspectors in a chicken processing plant can really inspect the 10K chickens processed on a daily basis? I feel much more comfortable eating the chicken that I raise for my table that has no federal or state inspections than I do about eating Tyson or Perdue birds.

    #3.2 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:15 AM EST
    Lee-479062

    SG, do you think those are the only two options? Stossel has just highlighted that the regulations are onerous, unacceptably restrictive and devoid of reason.

    • 1 vote
    #3.3 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:19 AM EST
    Jim44

    Do you think that food safety laws are frivolous Jim?

    Yes !!! Some...

    To stop kids from selling frickin lemonade which is what started this Yes !!!!! There are a ton of stupid such laws ... So to ask such a wide general question ...

    Why can't someone question something stupid with out a progressive going all the way to the far extreme? There is a bit of a difference between saying its stupid to stop a kid from having a sidewalk Lemonade Stand and "Do you think that food safety laws are frivolous" and I suspect you know it ...

    But it is a tactic that the left does LOVE TO USE...

    I guess supporting kids having a Lemonade Stand also means I am against CHILD LABOR LAWS too... having a 14 yr old and a 10 yr old slave over a Lemonade Stand in the hot July Georgia sun... Damn I guess I should be in Jail for just thinking that would be OK...
    Ridiculous question !

    Do you think that we should strive to be more like Pakistan?

    If they are smart enough not to mess with 2 little kids selling Lemonade ? YES I DO !

    A ridiculous question deserves a ridiculous answer !

    • 2 votes
    #3.4 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:25 AM EST
    StevieGee

    If everyone is required to comply with the same food safety laws how is that not a free market? Restaurants in NYC are not competing with restaurants in Pakistan. Spinach fields and chicken processors aside, the vast majority of food borne illnesses occur from improper handling of food during preparation. It's not unreasonable to require restaurant workers to learn about food safety.

      #3.5 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:28 AM EST
      cg68doc

      Food safety can be boiled down to 3 rules.

      1. Keep cold foods cold.

      2. Keep hot foods hot.

      3. Wash your hands.

      To learn those 3 things takes a 15 hour course mandated by government?

      • 1 vote
      #3.6 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:32 AM EST
      Lee-479062

      All regulations, by definition, are inhibitive of a free market. Some are well thought out and serve a legitimate purpose. Very many do not.

      Perhaps you can explain why they would require that the fire extinguisher be purchased from a company that handles waste?

      Or perhaps you can explain why a lemonade stand would need a fire extinguisher in the first place. No electricity, no flammable operations of any kind.

      • 1 vote
      #3.7 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:33 AM EST
      StevieGee

      Why can't someone question something stupid with out a progressive going all the way to the far extreme?

      Progressive? Who said anything about progressives? When did police departments in Georgia suddenly become liberal hotbeds?

        #3.8 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:35 AM EST
        Jim44

        Nice defection from the object of my comment (smile) ....

        • 1 vote
        #3.9 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:45 AM EST
        StevieGee

        All regulations, by definition, are inhibitive of a free market.

        I disagree. Regulations are inhibitive only when they aren't applied equally across the board. As long as everybody has to abide by the same rules you have a level playing field. When you have a business that doesn't comply with the regulations is when the free market suffers. Perhaps there was a business nearby that sold lemonade, employed people, actually paid their taxes, had completed their food safety courses and health inspections and had their fire extinguisher handy. Is it a free market when somebody else can open a lemonade stand and disregard the laws?

          #3.10 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:47 AM EST
          Jim44

          Perhaps there was a business nearby that sold lemonade,

          Hahahaha Yep that's why they were shut down they were taking business from the legal Lemonade Stands ...

          Were you laughing when you wrote that?

          • 1 vote
          #3.11 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:00 AM EST
          cg68doc

          SG... by definition, in a "free market" I wouldn't need the government's permission to open a lemonaide stand in the first place, even if there was one right next door or accross the street... Competition is what drives the market not government interference. A playing field without government interference is the only truly "level playing field"

          • 1 vote
          #3.12 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:19 AM EST
          StevieGee

          It could apply to any business Jim. When discussing free markets a lemonade stand becomes almost a hypothetical. I'm a plumbing contractor in CA. The regulations are similar to those described by the author above. I have a city business license and a state contractors license (and another for Nevada), I'm bonded, insured, pay workers comp for my employees, and I carry a fire extinguisher. I have to compete with "handymen" who work for cash. Is that a free market?

            #3.13 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:21 AM EST
            cg68doc

            SG.. no it isn't.... Shouldn't your reputation and the satisfaction of your customers drive whether you are a success, and not whether or not you have a license?

            • 1 vote
            #3.14 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:42 AM EST
            Jim44

            Sorry cg68doc

            I am beginning to see a brick wall here... Answers for everything even when they have nothing to do with the question...

            • 1 vote
            #3.15 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:04 AM EST
            Lee-479062

            SG, you can disagree all you wish to. It does not change the fact that all regulations interfere with free markets to some degree. I recommend that you try to take an economics course somewhere along the way.

            A "level playing field" can be had if all restaurants are only allowed to operate for two hours from 2PM to 4Pm on Mondays. That is not a free market.

            • 2 votes
            #3.16 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 9:51 AM EST
            Reply
            Rodney-889389

            If John Stossel was on fire I wouldn't walk across the street to piss on that worthless POS. What a disgrace to the profession of journalism, he's nothing more than a 2 bit hack, just like his his girlfriend Brit Hume.

            • 4 votes
            Reply#4 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 4:53 AM EST
            blazn-5320152Deleted
            Better Careful

            A "test" was set up by an employee of a fascist propaganda machine. His network, and he, have only slightly more credibility than James O'Keefe.

            That said, where's the stand? Let's have someone get sick, and see if Fox/Stossel want our government to protect them from a lawsuit for selling poison. Why, there's $Millions to be made here, and a lawyer to take the case is only as far away as late-night TV.

            Does Fox/Stossel deserve a level playing field and protection against frivolous suit? It would be fun to find out. I'll do an undercover story and expose their true motives and agenda. What fun!

            • 1 vote
            Reply#6 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 5:56 AM EST
            Jim44

            A "test" was set up by an employee of a fascist propaganda machine

            LOL is it hard to come up with those lines? I mean does everyone you know talk like that ?

            "fascist propaganda machine"

            that was some good Chit ..hahaha !!!!!

            • 1 vote
            #6.1 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:03 AM EST
            Better Careful

            Let's get sick at Stossel's Stand and sue the bastards for every penny they got! Now, there's a LOL for you, if there ever was one. Surely Fox and Stossel would agree that no regulations protecting them are needed, if they're going to insist that no regulations protecting the public exist. Fair is fair, don't you think?

            I'll take a guess that the intent is to protect the producer, even granting license to act without accountability to the producer via corporate laws, while permitting the producer to hold hostage and abuse the consumers. The problem with that model is that you cannot force consumers to buy when to buy is going to hurt them, even in monopolistic markets like energy, finance, and communications.

            Fox and the right-wing are too myopic, greedy, and authoritarian to understand any of that. See my comment below.

              #6.2 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:55 AM EST
              Reply
              WmRAllen

              Did the Georgia police officers overreact? Yes.

              Did Stossel overreact in turn, showing a lack of perspective and proportion by characterizing the regulations for a commercial food-service business such as a restaurant as some imagined plot to stop kids from selling lemonade in their front yards? Also yes.

              • 1 vote
              Reply#7 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:21 AM EST
              cg68doc

              If the regulations are applied "fairly" a lemonaide stand could be considered a commercial food service business by bureaucrats.... just ask the IRS.

              • 1 vote
              #7.1 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:40 AM EST
              Jim44

              showing a lack of perspective and proportion by characterizing the regulations for a commercial food-service business such as a restaurant as some imagined plot to stop kids from selling lemonade in their front yards? Also yes.

              Stossel tried to open a LEMONADE STAND.... not a commercial food service business not a restaurant a Lemonade Stand in New York City... So his findings are relevant....

              • 1 vote
              #7.2 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:08 AM EST
              Reply
              Better Careful

              Would Fox like to go without regulations and standards for broadcast and transmission of data and electrical signals? I could create my own communications producer and send signals on whatever wavelength I choose; I could jam Fox and create so much noise in their signals that their network fails. Would they support my right to do that?

              Why, we could undermine the entire industrial food system through disease, sickness, and death. Imagine no supermarkets, no fast food stores, no industrial food outlets; imagine only getting food locally, from face-to-face contact.

              Imagine a major sector of our economy simply not existing, with the collapse of food preparation, food transport, food storage, and food production. I have no firm data, but this economic segment, with all its tendrils, has to amount to 25% of our economy, or more, most likely.

              Fox, and the rest of the right-wing, like their regulation a lot when those regulations are in their own selfish interests. They dislike any regulations which do not serve their selfish interests, especially any regulations which hinder making a dollar at someone else's expense. In our present political climate and time, their focus is on permitting pollution by oil and energy companies, and on permitting the finance industry to hold Americans hostage and plunder our economy, government, and Treasury. Fox and Friends are eager to corrupt our government for profit in these areas.

              Regulations permit and protect large, impersonal, and free markets. Of course Fox and Friends don't want to go without their own particular protections, or forsake the free markets they enjoy; they "merely" want license to act without fear of consequence or accountability in the sectors from which they profit as investors, in the monopolies of energy and finance.

              • 1 vote
              Reply#8 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:50 AM EST
              cg68doc

              Why, we could undermine the entire industrial food system through disease, sickness, and death. Imagine no supermarkets, no fast food stores, no industrial food outlets; imagine only getting food locally, from face-to-face contact.

              You mean like the growing "Buy Local" movement that is in competition with ConAgra and Monsanto and ADM? That would be why I grow vegetable and raise chickens for sale locally....

              Ragulations do NOT permit and protect free markets. By definition a "Free" market is free from government intervention. It allows the consumer and the produceer to conduct trade that is mutually beneficial to both parties. Regulations are a method of the government picking who can participate in a particular market or not.

              Would Fox like to go without regulations and standards for broadcast and transmission of data and electrical signals? I could create my own communications producer and send signals on whatever wavelength I choose; I could jam Fox and create so much noise in their signals that their network fails. Would they support my right to do that?

              So you are suggesting that you have the right to act in such a way that would interfere or harm another producer's ability to trade in the marketplace??? You really think that's what a free market is?

                #8.1 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 6:56 AM EST
                Better Careful

                Free markets are defined by the relationship between seller and buyer, producer and consumer. In free markets there is a real and functioning feedback loop from consumer to producer. The will of the consumer affects the actions of the producer. Further, there is competition between producers for the business of the consumer. In free markets the needs of the consumer drive prices, product selections, quality, and improvements. Competition has a large part in moving the market and its offerings progressively. Risk for producers in inherent in free markets; indeed, it's that risk that provides the intellectual and moral position for capitalism.

                The antithesis of a free market is monopoly, owned and protected by either a large organization or a cabal. We currently suffer from un-free, hostage markets in energy, communications, and finance.

                Without regulation free markets collapse. The right-wing has it all bass-ackwards, and in a totally self-serving way. The desire is for more hostage markets, less free markets, less consumer feedback, less competition, and less risk. Risk in these hostage markets is totally shifted to the consumer. It's predatory. Republicans like it a lot.

                If you would like to debate economics with me here on Newsvine, moderated by our group, I'd be happy to. I would enjoy that a lot.

                That is from another thread. Would you like to debate economics with me? I'd be happy to have that debate. Now, I'd better get busy jamming Fox's communication system; it's a free market, after all.

                • 1 vote
                #8.2 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:08 AM EST
                Jim44

                Better Careful

                care to provide a source???

                  #8.3 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:10 AM EST
                  Better Careful

                  "(An Inquiry into the Nature and Causes of the) Wealth of Nations" by Adam Smith. Start there. When you finish with that, I"ll provide a number of books on economics for you to read and study. Adam Smith is (not totally accurately) called the Father of Capitalism. He knew something about this.

                  John Stossel is, by comparison, merely a political hack.

                    #8.4 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:46 AM EST
                    cg68doc

                    Actually I am currently reading Murray Rothbard's "Man, Economy and State" as well as his book "Power and Market". "Human Action" by von Mise is next on the "to read" list... I think I read "Road to Serfdom" last year, and some of Bastiat's work as well. Thanks, but I already have my hands full.

                      #8.5 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 7:54 AM EST
                      Jim44

                      Wealth of Nations" by Adam Smith. Start there.

                      Being I have already read it ...I'll pass it wasn't much fun to read the first time... But I don't remember Smith saying things like ...

                      The right-wing has it all bass-ackwards, and in a totally self-serving way.

                      So your answer... Is not an answer....

                      You block quoted something that you now say is ...what ? An opinion of someones (possibly yours) that came up with conclusions from reading a book or several books?

                      That's interesting but not an answer... You copied it from somewhere...

                      cg68doc .... Hayek was better reading than Smith ....(smiles)

                      • 1 vote
                      #8.6 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:19 AM EST
                      Better Careful

                      I copied that from another thread. It's my own writing. Every last word of it. Forgive the confusion, I thought I had made it clear that the writing is my own.

                        #8.7 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:32 AM EST
                        Reply
                        caballojoe

                        So what, there are regulations that apply to businesses. Some are over-regulated, some are under-regulated. Under-regulation of the US Financial Markets is why there was is a huge housing bubble and the market crashed in 2008, with over $600 billion in bad mortgages and lots of bank failures, whereas justified and robust regulation is what kept the Canadian financial markets from suffering the same fate, and which makes the Canadian banking system the strongest in the world right now.

                        I have to laugh when Ron Paul says he would remove all the layers of protection and eliminate the agencies that test food safety, and that the market will adjust because people that are injured by tainted or unsafe food products will simply sue the sellers. Such market adjustments are fine if you're not the one suffering with botulism or salmonella. Moreover, it's the same party that wants to deregulate that also constantly wants tort reform, so while they are removing the regulations that protect consumers, they also want to remove and/or limit one's right to sue for negligence, malpractice, defective products and other torts. The consumer loses on both counts.

                        Businesses don't need coddling. Businesses have a history of cheating, shortcutting, overpricing, bait and switch, price-fixing, polluting, monopolizing, unfair trade practices, unfair treatment of labor, selling stale and tainted food, putting the thumb on the scale, and the list goes on and on. If they are not regulated that's what they will do. The most recent fiasco that hurt ALL Americans was the sub-prime mortgage bond fraud after severe deregulation of financial practices.

                        The lady that had her vagina burned off after buying coffee at MacDonald's is another example of why we need regulation. That store had been warned several times that the coffee they were selling was 20-30 degrees hotter than the safety standards and they were admonished at least twice to recalibrate the equipment because the coffee was to too hot to hold in ones hand. They didn't recalibrate and the women couldn't hold the cup in her hand and dropped it in her lap and that's why MacDonald's lost that case. She had to have vaginal reconstruction surgery.

                        There should be a solution for kids that want to run lemonade stands. But the kids lemonade lobby just doesn't have that much clout. Maybe John Stossel would like to lobby the New York Assembly to have legislation proposed. Or perhaps he really doesn't give a @!$%# about kids and is just exploiting them. Much more likely.

                        It certainly sounds like regulations are onerous when you cite a case like this. But to be fair, you can't just look at one situation in a vacuum. Let's look at the big picture. Perhaps we should also be talking about someone whose life was saved because some business was required to have a fire extinguisher on the premises. Or the millions that are protected every day because of higher food quality standards. Some people don't want to talk about those facts because it doesn't support their agenda or the bottom line of their balance sheet.

                        • 1 vote
                        Reply#9 - Fri Feb 24, 2012 8:07 AM EST
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